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Rome says that it is given to those who work for it; Paul says it is given to those who do not work for it.

32) No, Paul says it is given to those who do not work for it on the basis of "debt" or "wages" as Romans 4:4 specifies. Paul has only one category of works with which he is dealing in Romans 4. He is not dealing with works in the category of grace, since grace is antithetical to debt, as he says in Romans 11:6. Until Dr. Horton makes this distinction, he will never understand either Scripture or Catholicism.

Rome says that God only justifies those who are truly holy inherently; Paul says that God only justifies those who are truly wicked inherently.

33) Got that wrong, too. Rome says God justifies the ungodly. That's what Baptism is all about. That is what Confession is all about. Those in Original Sin and those in Mortal Sin are "ungodly," and they need to be made godly. By the way, Canon 5 of the Council of Orange (a Catholic Council before there were ever any Protestants) says: ".by which we believe in Him who justifies the impious.reforming our will from infidelity to faith, from impiety to piety." Chapter 7 of the Council of Trent stated: "For although no one can be just but he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet this does take place in this justification of the ungodly."

Rome says that justification is a process of attaining righteousness; Paul says that justification is a declaration of imputed or "credited" righteousness.

34) Scripture says justification is a process, too. That's why it says Abraham was justified in Genesis 15 (Romans 4:3) and Genesis 22 (James 2:21-24), and had the faith of justification in Genesis 12 (Hebrews 11:8); Genesis 15 (Hebrews 11:17); and Genesis 22 (Hebrews 11:17). Further, where does Paul say that justification is a "declaration"? Where does he say it is "imputed"? I know where Paul uses the Greek word logizomai, but we have already seen earlier in my rebuttal how Protestants distort its meaning (See answer #6). Does Dr. Horton have any other proof for his contention?

Furthermore, Paul cites David's example. "Blessed is the man to whom God will not impute sin." Justification for Paul therefore has nothing whatever to do with a process of moral improvement; it is concerned with imputation.

35) Well, Dr. Horton skipped over the most important piece of evidence denying his position and proving the Catholic position. Since Dr. Horton brought up the issue that Rome teaches justification is a process, let's see if the case of David affirms or denies this Catholic concept.

In Romans 4:7 Paul is quoting David from Psalm 32 and 51. David is thanking God for forgiving him of the sins of adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband Uriah. But here's the curious fact: Paul is using David AS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW ONE IS JUSTIFIED, just as he did with Abraham a few verses earlier. In other words, David is the chief example of Paul's case against the self-righteous Jews! David didn't depend on any works (like circumcision) to clear his guilt with God. Rather, he pleaded, from his faith, for forgiveness, and God was merciful to him. This is why Paul says that God justifies the "ungodly," for when David committed adultery and murder he BECAME an ungodly man. In Catholic theology we call these kinds of sins mortal, because they kill the soul and make one ungodly.

But all this begs the question, for since Paul is using David as an example of a person who receives justification by grace not works, let's delve into this a little further. Was this the first time David was justified in his life? No. David received forgiveness for murdering Uriah and committing adultery with Bathsheba in his later life. Prior to that, David was known as a mighty man of God. He slayed the giant Goliath by calling on the Lord, even when the rest of Israel was afraid (1 Samuel 17). David is so close to God prior to his sin with Bathsheba that God calls him a "man after my own heart" (1 Sam 13:14; Acts 13:22). And David confessed his sins before the Lord on many other occasions, prior to the events in Psalm 32 (Psalm 25:7, 18). What this means is that in order to be the man of God David is said to be, he had to be a justified man, otherwise, he would have been doing all these godly acts as a pagan. Accordingly, when David committed adultery and murder, he lost his justification (just as Catholicism teaches) and his justification had to be restored. It was restored in his sincere confession of his sins (just as Catholicism teaches about Confession of Mortal Sin). Perhaps Dr. Horton should take another look at David, don't you think? If you want more information on David, consult pages 234-240 of Not By Faith Alone.

Then he goes back to Abraham: "Under what circumstances was [righteousness] credited [to Abraham]?" Paul asks. "Was it after he was circumcised or before?" This is the heart of our question today. "Under what circumstances does God justify?" Is it before or after we begin in holiness? Rome answers that this justification is declared on the basis that the sinner is no longer a sinner, but has already begun in holiness. But Paul answers that it is before the new obedience begins. Abraham, Paul observes, was justified before he obeyed God in offering Isaac. "So then he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them...It was not through the Law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise..., but through the righteousness that comes by faith." And why is the righteousness that comes by Law opposed to the righteousness that comes by faith? Paul says it is "because the law brings wrath," since it can only render a "guilty" verdict in our case.

36) I think the case of David explains the answer to this question, if only Dr. Horton would consider it. But here's another point: Both Abraham and David are prime examples of the Catholic concept of progressive justification. Abraham increased in his justification (just as the Council of Trent stated in Canon 24, 32); and David lost and regained his justification (just as the Council of Trent stated in Canon 29). In addition, Abraham's faith in Genesis 12 and 15, followed by his lapses of faith in Genesis 16-17, and the followed by the subsequent justification and perfection of his faith in Genesis 22 (cf, James 2:23-24), shows the Catholic teaching of fides informatta ("unformed faith") and fides informis ("formed faith"), as taught by St. Thomas Aquinas.

If we are justified by a process of cooperating with grace, we can only have peace with God when we no longer sin. But Paul writes, "Since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand" (Rom.5:1-2). Paul drives this point home further in verse 9: "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!"

37) No, we only lose the peace of God when we fall into grievous sin (mortal sin) such as the murder and adultery that David committed. When he was justified after he confessed those sins, the peace of God was restored to him. Each time we confess mortal sins we are justified and attain the peace of God.

In the latter half of Romans 5, Paul unpacks the legal, forensic character of justification he has defended. Adam's sin was imputed to the entire human race. We were made guilty before God not by a process of sin being infused into us, but by a declaration of our solidarity with Adam as our representative head.

38) No, not correct. In fact, this view of Dr. Horton's was classed as a heresy in the early Church. Please consult the analysis I made of Romans 5:19 earlier in this rebuttal. I stated that, in Adam, we were "made sinners," not "declared sinners." Original Sin is not a "declaraton." It is a real, ontological, sinful state of the soul. I wonder how Dr. Horton can call it merely a "declaration" when he knows that, because of Adam's sin, man's body and soul have assumed a sin nature which gives him a proclivity to sin. How can that be if the only thing that happened in Eden was a "declaration"?

In exactly the same way, Paul says, Christ's righteousness is imputed to all believers by virtue of their union with him. The imputation of righteousness is just as forensic or legal as the imputation of sin: "The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification." Are our opponents really willing to argue that condemnation is a moral process?

39) We're willing to argue that if you commit a gross immorality, without repentance, you will be condemned. That's why the New Testament constantly warns its believers not to fall away from the faith. If they do, they will be condemned. But of course, Dr. Horton doesn't believe any of that. He believes that once you're justified you cannot lose your salvation, for any reason. Unfortunately, that is another heresy that the Bible simply does not teach. If you want to know the facts, consult pages 261-293 in Not By Faith Alone.

Jesus said that he who does not believe stands condemned already, just as the one who believes "has passed from death unto life." Where is the process that leads to acquittal? From the mouth of our Lord and his apostles, the justification is as declarative as the condemnation. As a result, Paul confidently announces, "Therefore, there is now"--not at the end, if one cooperates with grace, but "there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Rom.8:1).

40) Yes, as long as you believe and obey you have no condemnation. But if you stop believing and obeying, you no longer have the promise of no condemnation. It's a simple matter of logic, but Calvinists are too blinded by their system of theology to see it. Scripture says it best in 2 Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us."

In 1 Corinthians, Paul tells us that the Gospel, though foolishness to those who are perishing, is the wisdom and power of God. For Christ has been made "our righteousness, holiness, and redemption." Here, Paul is simply picking up a recurring Old Testament Gospel announcement. For instance, we read in Is.61:10: "I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness." Jeremiah prophesied of Christ, "In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness." Christ does not merely infuse me with righteousness; he is my righteousness. This is the meaning of the animal skins with which God clothes Adam and Eve and the robe that the father places over the prodigal son. And yet, this is precisely what Rome denies: God cannot, we are told, judge me to be righteous while I am unrighteous simply by transferring Christ's righteousness to me. But this is precisely what Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Paul are arguing.

41) No, Genesis, Isaiah and Jeremiah are merely using metaphors, metaphors that Dr. Horton is distorting so that he can fit them into the Calvinistic gospel. Rome doesn't deny any of the "coverings" of the Bible. She just makes them more effective than Protestants do. Our coverings actually do something; the Protestant coverings just act as labels.

But it is in Paul's letter to the Galatians where one finds the apostle's magisterial defense of the Gospel in the crucible of controversy. It is especially relevant in view of the fact that the church fathers themselves offered contradictory views on the way of salvation. In his epistle to the Corinthians, Clement, Bishop of Rome just a few decades after Paul's letters to the same church, wrote, "So we too who by his will have been called in Christ Jesus are justified not of ourselves nor through our own wisdom or understanding or piety, nor yet through anything that we have done in purity of heart, but through that faith through which almighty God has justified all men from the beginning, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." Justin Martyr, John Chrysostom, and other Fathers concur. The Fathers said some good things and some bad things, but always sent us directly and finally back to Scripture.

42) Invariably I find Protestants snipping quotes out of the early Fathers, taking them totally out of context. The case with Clement of Rome is no exception. The quote that Dr. Horton extracts comes from The First Epistle of Clement, Chapter 32. Granted, Clement speaks of not being justified by works, but what kind of works does he have in mind? We will see that he is referring to the same kind of works that Canon 1 of the Council of Trent condemned. Here is that canon again: "If anyone shall say that man can be justified before God by his own works which are done either by his own natural powers, or through the teaching of the Law, and without divine grace through Christ Jesus: let him be anathema."

How do we know this is Clement's meaning? Because in chapter 30 of his epistle he says this: "Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God.being justified by our works, and not our words." Obviously, Clement has a different meaning for works in chapter 32 than he does in chapter 30, since the former does not justify but the latter does.

In chapter 31, Clement says this: "For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith"? Here we see the kinds of works that Clement believes are effective for justification, not our own works, but works wrought through faith, the very thing the Catholic Church teaches today.

These works are so important to Clement that he states in chapter 34: "And thus He forewarns us: 'Behold, the Lord cometh, and His reward is before His face, to render to every man according to his work," one of the very verses (Romans 2:6) that Dr. Horton says is hypothetical and impossible to obey. Thus we see that Clement does not even come close to supporting the theology of Dr. Horton. The same is true of Justin Martyr and Chrysostom. When studied in context they don't support Dr. Horton's theology at all.

If a prominent church founded by the Apostle Paul could fall so quickly into a false gospel of works-righteousness, we should not be surprised at the confusion of the early church. "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even is we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" Paul describes his public controversy with Peter, which would have been a rather remarkable thing had Peter been the first infallible pope.

43) Dr. Horton should know by now that infallibility is a special charism of the Pope used only at official times. For example, Peter's declaration in Acts 15 that Gentiles will not need to be circumcised to be Christians was an infallible statement by Peter in his office as Pope. But infallibility does not mean impeccability. Peter had many flaws in his character, as did a lot of other Popes. In Galatians 2, Peter's refraining from eating with Gentiles was a great indiscretion, but he wasn't teaching official doctrine for the Catholic Church at that time, and thus Paul had every right to confront him, just as St. Catherine of Sienna confronted the Pope in her day.

But Peter did, in the end, come around and in his own letters acknowledged Paul's writings as Scripture. If Peter could be corrected by Scripture, one would have hoped that those who claimed to be his successors might have imitated him.

44) First of all, 2 Peter 3:16 says nothing about Peter suddenly realizing that Paul's writings were Scripture. Dr. Horton is reading into the verse what he would like to see. Second, it says nothing about Peter being corrected by Scripture. Dr. Horton is reading that into the verse, too.

If you really want to know what kind of authority Peter possessed in order to interpret Scripture, take a look at Acts 1:20, when the replacement for Judas must be decided. Peter extracts two obscure Psalms (Psalm 69:25; 108:9) that say nothing about either apostleship or Judas, but only David's court, and uses them as the precedent to maintain 12 apostles. That's quite a remarkable effort at exegesis by someone who Dr. Horton says is "corrected by Scripture." In Acts 1:20, Peter apparently has insight into Scripture that none of the other 10 apostles possess. Moreover, no one challenges Peter and questions from whence his authority comes to make such far-reaching interpretations of the Old Testament. So, when it comes to making dogma for the Church, Peter is portrayed as an undaunted bulwark who unlocks the mysteries of God's revelation. When it comes to his personality, however, he is as weak as the other apostles, perhaps even more so.

In fact, Peter himself declared that there is a heavenly inheritance reserved in heaven for those "who through faith are shielded by God's power" and assures his readers, "you are receiving the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls" (1 Pet. 1:5). Peter opens his second epistle with the greeting, "To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours."

45) Granted, but does Peter ever oppose faith and good works as mutually salvific? No. In fact in 1 Peter 1:17 he says: "If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth." That's very similar to Romans 2:6-13, the passage that Dr. Horton says is impossible for man to obey.

In Galatians, Paul declares that "by observing the Law no one will be justified...for if righteousness could be gained through the Law, Christ died for nothing." The apostle could not have been more aggravated: "You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?...All who rely on observing the Law are under a curse...Clearly no one is justified before God by the Law, because 'The righteous will live by faith.' The Law is not based on faith; on the contrary." In Rome, one is justified by faith and obedience, but for Paul, justification by faith is contrary to justification by obedience.

46) The only one who has been bewitched here is Dr. Horton. Do you see what he has done? He keeps making the same mistake over and over again. He has failed to make the proper distinction between Law and obedience. Yes, we agree, the Law, by itself, is an uncompromising judge that will condemn for the slightest fault. The Law is a legal entity that has no capacity to show mercy to someone who pleads for forgiveness. Only a personal being can give forgiveness. If you break the Law, you will be punished by the Law (unless the personal being can somehow set aside the Law or take you out of the Law's grip). Once you are taken out of the Law, which happens when you become a Christian (cf., Romans 7:6-8; 8:1-4), then you are under grace, not law (Romans 6:14).

In the realm of grace, you are required to both have faith and obedience is order to benefit from the mercy that the personal benefactor wants to give to you. Although we are no longer under the Law, we now use the Law as a model for our obedience. That's why Paul reiterates the commandments in Romans 13:9-11. Ultimately, Jesus is our Law. We model our behavior after Him, and He will also be our Judge. That such obedience is required for justification we have already proved from Romans 2:5-13; Matthew 12:36-37, and many other passages.

But Paul also says something similar from the very book Dr. Horton quoted, Galatians. In Galatians 5:4-6, Paul says: 4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." Notice in verse 6 how Paul couples "faith" and "love" in the clause "faith working through love." Here is a special relationship between faith and love that adds love to the salvific formula, and denies faith alone. Now notice that Paul opposes this clause over against the phrase in verse 4, "justified by law." In other words, being justified by law is the opposite of being justified by faith working through love. We can also replace "love" with "obeying the commandents of God," since Paul, using the same "neither circumcision nor uncircumcision matters" formula in 1 Corinthians 7:19, then says that "obeying God's commandments" is all that matters.

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